Rogues excel at dealing melee damage and incapacitating their foes, particularly low health and low armor targets such as casters. Stealth gives them a tactical advantage and allows them to start a fight on their own terms. Other important abilities include lockpicking and the creation and handling of poisons. Also, a huge power is the Rogue's ability to stun and incapacitate for a large period of time. This, paired with the rogue's high damage, gives him a huge edge over his opponent. Rogues do not use mana for their combat abilities. Instead they use energy and generate combo points which are used to execute finishing moves.
Required reading, as far as I'm concerned:
Gear.
http://shadowpanther.net/ (http://shadowpanther.net/)
Shadowpanther has always been the best quick-glance gear and item ranking list for years. Covers PVE/raid and PVP focus. Tons of updated info on everything rogue related.
If you're new to rogues, start studying the pve armor (http://shadowpanther.net/armor-pve.htm) and weapon (http://shadowpanther.net/weapons-pve.htm) charts for quest rewards, world drops, crafted items, and pvp rewards. There are lots of surprisingly easy to get items that sometimes rank up with endgame purples in terms of effectiveness.
Specs.
http://www.wowwiki.com/Rogue_builds (http://www.wowwiki.com/Rogue_builds)
http://www.wowwiki.com/Rogue_talents (http://www.wowwiki.com/Rogue_talents)
Tactics.
http://www.wowwiki.com/Rogue_tactics (http://www.wowwiki.com/Rogue_tactics)
Integrating with other classes.
http://www.wowwiki.com/Working_with_a..._%28Rogue%29 (http://www.wowwiki.com/Working_with_a..._%28Rogue%29)
http://shadowpanther.net/treeanalysis.htm (http://shadowpanther.net/treeanalysis.htm)
Scroll to the bottom and check out the Talent Spec Anaysis.
You can look at this speadsheet and see what you'd be gaining or losing by choosing different talent combinations, which you can also click on and study in detail. PVP specs are generally going to suck in raids, and raid specs are likely to get you pwned in arenas, no matter how good your gear is.
For PVE/raiding, you'll see that 16/45 Combat Fist/Sword (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0eboxZMIV0bVzEMGot) and Mace/Sword (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0eboxZMIV0bVtxMGot) have the highest sustained dps potential (mathematically at least). Gear, consumables, mad skillz, and lots of other factors also play a part. I'm running a pretty standard 20/41 Combat Swords (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0ebovZMIVobVzxMGot) on Snique (http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Zul%27jin&n=Snique) which is very similar and only a bit lower in DPS. Note that this "not reflect a true DPS comparison." Combat swords is widely recognized as the best end game raid spec and arguably the highest DPS of any class in the game. Daggers will work ok with a combat spec, but it doesn't have enough combo point and energy generation to keep up with swords.
For PVP, it's either 0/31/30 AR/Prep Maces (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fZhbEzbVt0z0oZxMjoMuRox) for full stunlock (control), or 50/0/11 Mutilate Subtlety (2.4) (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0efRErsidVoZyM) for the highest burst damage potential. Note the huge differences in burst DPS, mobility, and survivability. You'll have to make careful choices about your playing style to make one or the other really effective.
If you want to gain any respect (or perhaps hatred) as a rogue, you're going to have to choose between PVE/PVP and stick with it. Gladiator purples are fine for both at first, but your spec is going to determine whether you start upgrading with hit rating for raids, or better resilience (arena) gear. Trying to go hybrid is only going to make you mediocre at both. The only other alternative is grinding out two separate sets of gear and having to pay for respecs, too.
If you want to pwn at both in the same gear, lvl a feral druid. (couldn't resist)
For the "Fist/Sword" spec, does it matter which hand the weapons are in or do you just abide by the slow MH, fast OH scenario?
Probably a mace/fist on main-hand and a fast off hand sword. Because of the way crits and procs scale on slower weapons, you'd want really slow and really high base (white) damage main hand, which can get sped up to more than twice its normal speed with slice-n-dice, blade flurry, trinkets, haste gear, instant attacks, etc. Therefore the DPS is often doubled too. So, you'd also want the mace spec (+5% crit dam) or fist (+5% crit hit) on the main hand to multiply its damage, while the sword spec (+5% extra swing) still favors really fast offhands to proc poisons and mongoose more often.
What this suggests is that having just the sword proc on both weapons ends up doing slightly less damage than benefiting from two weapon spec bonuses on either hand. But remember this isn't an actual DPS comparison. It's based only on the math in the talent tree and doesn't take creative gear, stat, and enchanting bonuses into account. I would only seriously consider a mace/fist+sword spec if I committed to hammersmith and made Dragonstrike (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28439) or save up badges for Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34893), but the S3 arena swords, maces, and fists all 'cost' the same and have identical DPS/stats which are slightly higher than both of those.
It's really a matter of tailoring your spec to slightly favor your best main hand weapon. Adding 5 points to a 2nd weapon spec means sacrificing Vile Poisons and the ability to poison the main hand at all, but that's not a great loss if you use weightstones and sharpening stones against mobs or bosses with nature resist and immunities. White damage is king. (zomg racist)
Having said all that, Combat Swords for raiding is still the recognized standard for top end DPS so just go with that since getting creative with mace/fist/sword combo specs isn't going to make a big difference when you're working toward weapons that all take weeks or months to get anyway.
From discussion on http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34893#comments (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34893#comments):
Fist/fist is better Rogue DPS than Fist/Sword or Sword/Sword - and here's the important part - if your Fist weapons are better than your Swords by a decent margin.
For me, for example, I have Talon of Azshara and MG Quickblade. Switching to these fists would near a 50 AEP upgrade, so unless the difference between Sword Specialization and Fist Specialization is more than 50 AEP, switching to the Vanir Fists will invariably result in greater dps.
For someone who may be using Spiteblade or the S1 mh, switching to the Vanir Fists will be a huge dps upgrade.
Remember, it's all about context. Given the choice between a sword and a fist with the exact same stats, you'll always be better off with the sword. But given a fist with insane stats and a sword with just pretty good stats, the fist is a better choice.
In fact, I am convinced this is the reason Blizzard made these available, to give more rogues a reason to use something other than combat swords.
So did I go off base with a 42/7/5 rogue at lvl 63? Burst damage is very respectable and a second add is no problem, its the 3rd or 4th when I am hitting the pots or vanish.
If I take the 7 points out of combat and give up an additional 5% dodge and 2/2 improved sinister strike and put them in assassination, will that help the PVE grind until I am ready for PVP? Will it make that much difference
http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-talents.xml?r=Zul%27jin&n=Totungrand
Eh it won't make a big difference. Frankly it doesn't matter that much when you're still leveling to 70 because quest progression encourages fighting mobs at about your level anyway, so any class or spec can reasonably handle that. But it does help to map out a spec and gear you intend to use for awhile so you'll be familiar with it.
If more survivability is what you're after, here's a good dagger spec from wowiki rogue builds (http://www.wowwiki.com/Rogue_builds) that's pretty close to what you already have and to what it sounds like you want. At 63 you're 7 points short of the full build so you won't get the dual offhand damage, but it will build up each level as you throw more points at it.
Daggers - Mutilate - 41/20/0 - PvE Focus (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0efoEMoizVohfV0bV)
If your focus is PvE with some PvP thrown in on the side, you'll need to improve your sustainable dps with combat talents. Dual-wield specialization is the key here, in addition to a solid increase in white damage, it will actually improve your mutilate damage as well. Also, you can never go wrong with improved slice and dice and precision. The same rules apply to you as to combat rogues: white damage is king. Don't ignore your hit rating and AP.
I'm a big fan of combat swords for PvE leveling/grinding simply because I'm so familiar with it from raiding. Unfortunately it kinda sucks for battlegrounds and it's practically suicidal in arenas. If you want to PvP for gear at 70 go with an established PvP spec and have fun with it. Your PvE performance will suffer, but not so much that you can't do Sunwell dailies or rep/mat/whatever grinds.
It's worth noting that almost no one uses dual daggers at 70 anymore. In the battlegrounds and S3 geared ppl standing around in the bank, I mostly see those mace stunlock rogues everyone hates, or sword/dagger (with Outfitter to auto-switch main/offhand for a main dagger in stealth). The most effective, tried-n-tested builds for PvP or raiding have left daggers in the dust. Bliz will have to make them more attractive in some future patch with a talent overhaul (read: nerf maces and swords) and/or a big change in stats for high-end daggers, neither of which is likely to happen until the expansion hits.
I leveled my rogue as mostly combat, and with Blind, Blade Flurry and Sap, I could handle up to 4 mobs without breaking a sweat. Stealth in, sap one, blind one, BF down the last two, kill the blind one, kill the sapped one. Might need one pot or have to bandage afterwards, but it was pretty sweet.
Thanks Fleas and Wildcard for the responses. To be honest I have no idea where I am going now besides to 70 :-) I liked the idea of assassination - massive burst damage out of stealth. I thought it worked well, especially in AV when lvl 60. If not working with a group of rogues to cap the Dun Baldar bunkers the burst was great at the back of the turtle. Even if I got the alliance to 1/3 or 1/4 health before I had to break combat someone else usually finished them off.
I do use the sap/blind combo when mobs are too close, thats not the problem. Its when a walker wanders into aggro range. Sometimes you need to be on the edge of aggro ranges in order to make the most out of remorseless attacks when it procs
I will have to try the mace / sword again and see how that changes things. I have not respecced at all so trying a few builds now might be worth a shot.
For PVP, stun is king, whether you are a rogue or a paladin.
Ah, yeah, I can imagine tremendous burst damage is king in pvp, which I don't think I've ever done on my rogue. I'm more of a pve person, so combat did the job for me leveling. Even the wandering add wasn't much of an issue if I was careful.
Now that I'm 70 I'm torn between keeping the combat spec or switching out. I understand combat is not the best spec for PvP, but I've had fun with it. I love being jumped by two people and stunned. Popping my Horde Insignia trinket to remove stuns, polymorphs, etc, and then blade flurry - and they shit when I do damage on both of them at the same time.
I think I do a fair job keeping them stunned.
I start off with a cheap shot out of stealth from behind. Sinister strike then a backstab or mutilate. With my build I will usually be at 4 or 5 combo points at that point. If not I will sinister strike again even if the mob turns to me. Once at 4 or 5 combo points its kidney shot, get behind, a few sinister strikes to get combo points back then eviscerate, mutilate or envenom. If they survive that then I repeat the sinister / kidney combo until dead.
Thats just something I figured out over time. I tend to backstab more on clothies/casters than mutilate though as the backstab crit seems to proc more on them versus armored mobs (and the miss on armored mobs is more painful to me) . I also use cold blood on the first mob when doing the first finishing move when fighting multiples to get it down quicker.
Is there a more efficient way?
Hope you dont mind me asking all this as I never had anyone to bounce this off till now.
Well, it works well enough but you're still trying to hybridize. Backstab is your only attack in that sequence which specifically requires a dagger from behind. Every other attack could be accomplished with any weapon and would do significantly higher damage with an appropriate combat (sword, mace, fist) spec. The problem is you're not maximizing the potential of insane crit dagger attacks if those are your weapons of choice. The whole point of any dagger build is to focus on setup for Ambush and Backstab crits from behind, which only daggers can do. Seal Fate / Premed - 30/0/31 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0efRuMoiZZyrcc0hR0xo) is a good example but it will require a big change in your attack sequences and play style, just like any other class when you move most of your talent points from one tree to another.
This is a versatile build that takes burst damage and combo point generation from Seal Fate and adds cooldown management with Prep. You get increased sap range and decreased energy cost for sap and blind with Dirty Tricks. Premed and Initiative offers the ability to open with 5 CP for huge opening and CB for high finishing damage. Imp Ambush with CB for big openers, and Serrated Blades for armor pen and rupture damage increase for plate and bears. These advantages make it a great PvP build but with cheap CS/Garotte and solid combo point generation.
I realize you're all probably tired of hearing me say this but every rogue has to choose between raiding or arenas to really shine. You simply can't do both with one spec and one set of weapons/gear. You'll do ok at battlegrounds but not arenas; world mobs and regular 5-mans are no problem but even a pimped out S3 mace rogue who shows up to a serious raid without (at the very least) a combat respec should be laughed out.
I think the easiest choice (while you're still leveling) is to lose the daggers, pick up some decent swords, and switch to standard combat swords (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0ebovZGcV0bVzxMGkt). Based on your attack sequence, you're already familiar with how it basically works even though you've been doing it with daggers all this time. You lose the backstab and any other dagger attacks (which you haven't been using much anyway) and gain a huge jump in overall DPS without relying on elaborate setups. You trade Seal Fate combo points for Combat Potency energy boosts, which combined with Slice-n-dice, Flurry and AR will provide just as many or more CPs for finishers.
Otherwise, choose any PvP spec, do some homework on it, and practice it on world mobs. Your level grinding will tend to be slower and more frustrating when dealing with adds but you'll be better prepared to deal with battlegrounds and arenas when you hit 70.
Quote from: Fleas on Sat, 2008-04-19 : 03:30
Required reading, as far as I'm concerned:
Gear.
http://shadowpanther.net/ (http://shadowpanther.net/)
Shadowpanther has always been the best quick-glance gear and item ranking list for years. Covers PVE/raid and PVP focus. Tons of updated info on everything rogue related.
yeah, but now he's charging 10 bucks for his info. I guess I can't blame him for wanting cash payback for putting all of his information out there.
He's only asking for ten bucks for his arena/kara prep guides. 15 for both. Everything else is and has always been free. I just checked. You can even grab xls spreadsheets (http://shadowpanther.net/xls.htm) of all those charts and tweak the numbers to your liking.
If the lists have too much math involved, ask questions and I'll try to answer them. It took me awhile to understand why one piece of gear ranks higher or lower than another. Even then I don't always agree with those rankings for things like trying to find upgrades you can reasonably expect to get with some effort, not t6 omgwtfpwn stuff you'll never get the slightest chance at unless you join a top raiding guild.