They want to see rogues use more daggers, they're THE rogue weapon and we don't see enough of them. In Patch 3.2.2 they might add an assassination talent to make daggers more attractive.
One of the plans for cataclysm is to take a lot of the early subtlety tree and make it passive for the class. The unattractive stuff will be taken out to let you get the cool talents.
Oh fuck yeah! I've never understood the whole concept of the sword rogue. They should have made it so that you can use swords as a rogue, but can't stealth while holding a sword. It'll free up all of the one handed swords for the other classes.
but nobody else really uses 1h swords. the only possible exception would be DK now that the new patch is out. Also how could you not get sword rogue ninjas use swords along with various other assassins though out time. if anything ambush and some of the other talents should work with swords and maces. I mean I don't get how you can sap with a dagger but you cant ambush with a mace? I am looking forward to getting my orc rogue to 80 and go axes and or fist weapons to get the bonus from the racial talent.
Quote from: jalor on Mon, 2009-08-24 : 12:33
...Also how could you not get sword rogue ninjas use swords along with various other assassins though out time.
As Pat once told Chuck... don't think you know Japanese history just because you watch a lot of anime. Ninja, more properly called Shinobi, rarely used swords. More often short daggers or other weapons. A sword was only brought on a mission if something needed cutting with a sword. Plus, (and Pat, feel free to correct me here), the sword they DID use was very short. Not a Katana like every damned cheesy American movie makes it out to be. Nor did they run around in those fucking black outfits. That came from Kabuki theatre and bad Hollywood.
Secondly, you can't make a statement like "along with various other assassins through out time" without citing your references, you're arguing with the History Major here. The word Assassin comes reputedly from Hashishin, a society of killers formed when their leader, Hassan Sabbah, split from the caliphate of the Islamic empire in 1092. They would only carry swords in the open when fighting like regular soldiers. When doing "wet work" as an assassin, they preferred small poison daggers and darts.
Quote
if anything ambush and some of the other talents should work with swords and maces. I mean I don't get how you can sap with a dagger but you cant ambush with a mace?
When sapping with a dagger, the idea is that you're using the hilt of the dagger instead of the blade. Ambush is supposed to be a stab between the neck and the collarbone to cause maximum bleeding. You can't do that with a mace. Maybe with a sword, but sneaking up on someone with a full sized sword and then managing to get it over your head and down between a full sized man's collarbone and neck would be damned near impossible.
A lot of assassin-like qualities of rogues had to be compromised for game design though. Else you'd never see rogues in anything pve.
Funny how they suddenly let rogues use axes, but now they want to go back to daggers. What's the point?
Quote from: Dave on Tue, 2009-08-25 : 12:39
A lot of assassin-like qualities of rogues had to be compromised for game design though. Else you'd never see rogues in anything pve.
Yeah, you're right there. Take for example the classic D&D rogue. Disarming traps and stealing without getting caught, or even noticed. In D&D you'd have the rogue avoiding fights if they could. Roll "hide in shadows" and wait for the fights to be over... But WoW didn't want rogue players to have to stand around in stealth mode while other classes had all the fun killing bosses.
First off I don't watch anime and I think the two words ninja( presumably someone who studies ninjitsu) and shinobi are relatively interchangeable although I think that there is a greater connotation with ninja = assassin and shinobi = diplomat/spy although this may only be when looking at it though western eyes. However when looking at an assassination you are looking for a quick take down in and out. Obously within the context of the game you can not stealth in and one shot a raid boss and then dissapear. This tends to force us to take into account
QuoteThey would only carry swords in the open when fighting like regular soldiers. When doing "wet work" as an assassin, they preferred small poison daggers and darts.
Most of the fighting in pve would be done in the open with the rogue acting in there front line soldier role where its less piratical, assuming you can even say its piratical at all to fight something the size of most raid bosses, to fight something that 3 stories tall with a 6 in dagger.
I have also heard the argument you are saping with the hilt of the dagger but if you are going to get after me for history then I get to attack your physics. There is no way that you are going to knock somebody unconscious with a the end of a 1 lbs. ish dagger especially when you are holding the dagger so close to the hilt you will produce a minimum force. Not to mention the idea of striking someone with the edge of a dagger in your hand seems dangerous at worst and difficult to control at best.
As far as ambush goes you may be extrapolating the idea of ambush here is the tooltip
Ambush the target, causing 275% weapon damage plus X to the target. Must be stealthed and behind the target. Requires a dagger in the main hand. Awards 2 combo points.
There is no defined expiation of how the attack occurs so I can only assume that this is your interpretation of ambush and that it therefore could be extrapolated to include several other things inducing but not limited to: dagger in the lower ribs, mace attack to the base of the skull, edged weapon to the kidneys or liver sword or dagger from under the arm into the main body cavity ect.
You know what trumps all of this? It's a game! With spells!
Quote from: Vitandus on Tue, 2009-08-25 : 15:34
You know what trumps all of this? It's a game! With spells!
Nooooooooo! I want true historical realism in my fantasy game!
Are you implying magic isn't real? Are you saying Hogwarts isn't real!? How dare you!!!
Crucio!!!!!!!
Quote from: jalor on Tue, 2009-08-25 : 14:10
First off I don't watch anime and I think the two words ninja( presumably someone who studies ninjitsu) and shinobi are relatively interchangeable
The western idea of "ninjitsu" is mostly a modern invention. I took an easy out and copied a quote from Wikipedia.
There are several organizations currently purporting to teach ninjutsu, or to provide neo-ninja training. Claims of authenticity are disputed, with some sources stating that none of the modern schools have kory? origins" -
Skoss, Diane (ed.); Beaubien, Ron; Friday, Karl (1999). "Ninjutsu: is it koryu bujutsu?"QuoteMost of the fighting in pve would be done in the open with the rogue acting in there front line soldier role where its less piratical, assuming you can even say its piratical at all to fight something the size of most raid bosses, to fight something that 3 stories tall with a 6 in dagger.
I'm assuming you mean "practical" and not the art of fighting like a Pirate. - Native Americans considered it the height of bravery to leap onto the backs of buffalo weighing over a ton and cutting it's throat before leaping off. The indians also considered it the height of bravery to face wild bear armed only with a knife. I doubt many lived, but some did. Google an indian named "Dull Knife". Obviously this is a game and the rogue's daggers and gear are supposed to be magic, but remember that neanderthals killed giant mastodons with slivers of stone.
QuoteI have also heard the argument you are saping with the hilt of the dagger but if you are going to get after me for history then I get to attack your physics. There is no way that you are going to knock somebody unconscious with a the end of a 1 lbs. ish dagger especially when you are holding the dagger so close to the hilt you will produce a minimum force. Not to mention the idea of striking someone with the edge of a dagger in your hand seems dangerous at worst and difficult to control at best.
Oh really? Gee, the guys in U.S. Airborne must not study physics either. I give you the V-42 Stiletto. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-42_combat_knife - "Specifications: Its features include a sharp blade
and a sturdy handle with a skull-cracking butt, similar to a Dotty Hammer." (Emphasis mine.) The idea being that you hold the dagger by the hilt (not the blade - that would be stupid) and knock a person out with the butt of the hilt in a downward blow.
QuoteAs far as ambush goes you may be extrapolating the idea of ambush here is the tooltip
Ambush the target, causing 275% weapon damage plus X to the target. Must be stealthed and behind the target. Requires a dagger in the main hand. Awards 2 combo points.
There is no defined expiation of how the attack occurs so I can only assume that this is your interpretation of ambush and that it therefore could be extrapolated to include several other things inducing but not limited to: dagger in the lower ribs, mace attack to the base of the skull, edged weapon to the kidneys or liver sword or dagger from under the arm into the main body cavity ect.
I took the requirement "must have a dagger in the main hand" and extrapolated that the easiest kill on a person wearing any armor type (including full plate) would be in the join where the neck and arm meet. However it
could just as easily mean a mace to the base of the skull... unless they're wearing plate and helm...edged weapon to the kidneys... unless they're wearing plate.. liver sword...unless they're wearing plate... or dagger from under the arm -(this might actually work as this is also a place where there's a join between the arm and chest pieces - but if the person had their arm down instead of up, this join is covered.) I base my extrapolation of the logical choice of "Ambush" - since it clearly states a dagger is required in the main hand, -to my historical knowledge of medieval armor and weapons. But don't take my word for it, you could also read
"The Archaeology of Weapons: Arms and Armour from Prehistory to the Age of Chivalry". - Ewart Oakshott - 1960 or
"A Knight and His Weapons" - R. Ewart Oakshott - 1964 He's a real expert.
Marry me Rod and have my babies!
Quote from: Acree on Tue, 2009-08-25 : 17:10
Marry me Rod and have my babies!
Nah, I'm ugly as fuck and any kids I have would be ugly just like me. Find somebody pretty :P
I'll leave Rod to the citations. But, most military special forces still teach (or so I have heard) techniques involving combat knife butts to the face, head, and neck as incapacitating blows meant to silence and disorientate. It is not always easier to slit someones throat in a fight when grappling is involved. You have to be able to use all of your weapon.
As far as physics goes, you fail. Any reasonably hard/blunt object can be used in such a way. A blackjack is short, somewhat heavy, and most of all hard. Hitting someone on the head does not have to crack their skull, it just needs to put the brain through some trauma to induce unconsciousness. That takes very little force. More than enough can be generated by the butt of a knife, much less something like a dagger in WoW (which is the size of a short sword).
First off this is a completely ridiculous item to argue about but it just goes to show how desperate I am to find a reason not to write this journal article.
QuoteI took the requirement "must have a dagger in the main hand" and extrapolated
This is a unfair extrapolation biased on the mechanics of the game requiring a dagger to maintain balance in the game. Making it one of many ways of ambushing an opponent
From a dictionary ambush:
Quotean act or instance of lying concealed so as to attack by surprise
This leaves a very broad interpretation to method of attack other than the fact that you are attacking from stealth. You cant assume that there is a prescribed method of attack since your method is a killing blow that is meant to in your own word, maximize bleeding, since this attack is not an instant kill and does not generated a bleed effect it would be better to assume that this is not the method of attack.
Also you have said that you shouldn't be able to stealth with a sword but most of the dagger models are larger than would could in all accounts be considered a sword. If its half the size of your body regardless of weather the tool tip says sword or dagger I would consider it equally improbable to sneak around stabbing people with it.
now is one to assume that everybody is wearing plate armor or just standing around in everyday clothing
QuoteOh really? Gee, the guys in U.S. Airborne must not study physics either. I give you the V-42 Stiletto. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-42_combat_knife - "Specifications: Its features include a sharp blade and a sturdy handle with a skull-cracking butt, similar to a Dotty Hammer." (Emphasis mine.) The idea being that you hold the dagger by the hilt (not the blade - that would be stupid) and knock a person out with the butt of the hilt in a downward blow.
QuoteI took the requirement "must have a dagger in the main hand" and extrapolated that the easiest kill on a person wearing any armor type (including full plate) would be in the join where the neck and arm meet. However it could just as easily mean a mace to the base of the skull... unless they're wearing plate and helm...edged weapon to the kidneys... unless they're wearing plate.. liver sword...unless they're wearing plate... or dagger from under the arm -(this might actually work as this is also a place where there's a join between the arm and chest pieces - but if the person had their arm down instead of up, this join is covered.) I base my extrapolation of the logical choice of "Ambush" - since it clearly states a dagger is required in the main hand, -to my historical knowledge of medieval armor and weapons. But don't take my word for it, you could also read "The Archaeology of Weapons: Arms and Armour from Prehistory to the Age of Chivalry". - Ewart Oakshott - 1960 or "A Knight and His Weapons" - R. Ewart Oakshott - 1964 He's a real expert.
This is important because I think you can only make a point of one of these issues since both abilities work on all armor types. I am assuming the US airborne is not training to knock individuals in full plate armor out with a dagger. You then go on to invalidate my extrapolation of the ability of are wrong assuming that everybody is wearing plate armor.
Also remember you can sap any humanoid this includes things like tauren and yeti I will concede my point if you can one shot knock out a bull with the butt end of a dagger.
QuoteNative Americans considered it the height of bravery to leap onto the backs of buffalo weighing over a ton and cutting it's throat before leaping off. The indians also considered it the height of bravery to face wild bear armed only with a knife. I doubt many lived, but some did. Google an indian named "Dull Knife". Obviously this is a game and the rogue's daggers and gear are supposed to be magic, but remember that neanderthals killed giant mastodons with slivers of stone.
They killed mastodons with spears not daggers, should rogues get polearms too? As I stated previously since your are only stealthed for the first blow you are taking the primary role of a main line soldier with two weapons in there hands and as you have stated yourself many individuals have carried swords when fulfilling this role.
QuoteNinja, more properly called Shinobi, rarely used swords.
QuoteThe western idea of "ninjitsu" is mostly a modern invention. I took an easy out and copied a quote from Wikipedia.
This is a direct conflict of ideas if the idea of ninjitsu it a modern idea you wouldn't associate them with shinobi of the feudal eras. So then a modern "ninja" would then use swords and wear black pajamas. It has been stated that rogues are biased on ninjas along with pirates and gladiators(I don't know where they came up with this one), not shinobi, by developers so again regardless of when and were the idea of a "ninja" was created the modern interpretation of what is called a ninja can be used as the base for the idea of a sword rogue.
As far as history goes you must include historical fiction and pop culture including anime, for better or worse, into your estimation of how to understand the basis for these characters as they are built into a fantasy world. This being said I think that a orc rogue is more likely to use an axe than a dagger if given the choice. This is baised on a "historical" perspective given to a large overly aggressive green skin individuals who have in the past carried axes into battles.
Quote from: jalor on Wed, 2009-08-26 : 15:46
First off this is a completely ridiculous item to argue about but it just goes to show how desperate I am to find a reason not to write this journal article.
I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread.
Oh, one more thing:
Cool Machinima video too. (even if the music is bad).
http://my.mig69.com/embed/42/HfqJsnoKBvGX
Quote from: jalor on Wed, 2009-08-26 : 15:46
First off this is a completely ridiculous item to argue about but it just goes to show how desperate I am to find a reason not to write this journal article.
I understand. Boredom is a great motivator.
My argument was based on 3 things:
1.- Your broadly generalized (and incorrrect) statement that "Ninja's and other assassins throughout time used swords". My original statement was that I didn't get sword rogues, based on my knowledge of the assassin/rogue archetype throughout military history. My original statement had nothing to do with the fantasy setting that is WoW. Your reply was based on your incorrect assumption of what you thought you knew about military history. You were trying represent an incorrect statement as historical fact. I responded with the historical facts and gave you references to show you that you were wrong.
2.-Your statement that sapping is nearly impossible with a dagger because of the physics involved. Again, my statement was based on my knowledge of military history, and modern fighting tactics, especially in regards to Military Special Forces throughout the world. My statement had nothing to do with the fantasy setting that is WoW. Your reply was based on your incorrect knowledge of actual fighting methods in regards to daggers in use with hand to hand combat. You were trying to represent an incorrect statement as Scientific fact. I responded with the documented facts and gave you references to show you that you were wrong.
3.- Your statement that Ambush shouldn't be daggers only. Again, my statement was based on my knowledge of medieval military fighting techniques, and supplemented by the "daggers only requirement" -since that's all the information I have from Blizzard. Putting it into a historical, not fantasy, framework, a dagger would be the best bet, and you would always assume your victim was wearing chain at the least, if not full plate, and go for the safest and most tried and true method of attack, between the neck and shoulder. I responded with the top 2 reference books on medieval fighting, which, if you read, will agree with my statements and show you that you were wrong.
Obviously, as Pat said, "It's a game! With Spells!" Which is what your reply should have been instead of trying to assert what you believed was correct. We could ambush with dandelions and soda straws, and my penis could squirt death urine that passes invisibly through walls and impregnate virgins.
QuoteAs far as history goes you must include historical fiction and pop culture including anime, for better or worse, into your estimation of how to understand the basis for these characters as they are built into a fantasy world. This being said I think that a orc rogue is more likely to use an axe than a dagger if given the choice. This is baised on a "historical" perspective given to a large overly aggressive green skin individuals who have in the past carried axes into battles.
Well, Oakshott doesn't say much about Orcs. I'd guess Tolkien's Ring Trilogy would be a better set of reference books. Though the word orc goes back to Beowulf and could mean either "walking dead" , "giant" or "jug". So, Blizzard can't even get orcs right.
If you want to talk about orcs, you should be referencing Warhammer 40k. The greatest orcs evar!
Cause if you paint it red, it will go faster.
Quote from: Acree on Thu, 2009-08-27 : 15:02
If you want to talk about orcs, you should be referencing Warhammer 40k. The greatest orcs evar!
Cause if you paint it red, it will go faster.
"Waaagh!"