HDL

    * Blessing of Kings – this spell is now a base ability trainable by all paladins.
    * Exorcism – this spell now causes damage to all types of enemy targets. However, it always critical strikes undead or demon targets. This change should make sure paladin damage doesn't drop when going from Naxxramas to later tiers of content.
    * Shield of the Templar now causes your Avenger's Shield and Shield of the Righteousness to silence targets for 3 sec. The old damage bonus of this talent has been folded into Holy Shield, Avenger's Shield, and Shield of the Righteousness.
    * Ardent Defender, Improved Hammer of Justice, One-Handed Weapon Specialization and more have had their ranks reduced.
    * Guarded by the Light – no longer reduces the mana cost of shield spells, but now has a 50/100% chance to refresh Divine Plea duration.
    * Judgements of the Just – now also reduces the cooldown of Hammer of Justice by 10/20 seconds and increases the duration of the Seal of Justice stun effect by 0.5/1 second.

Very exciting changes I think.

I'm wondering if the base line Kings will be the full 10%, or will it be the 2%, and you will have to spec to make it better.


-Mark

Quote from: Acree on Sat, 2009-02-07 : 20:29
Very exciting changes I think.

I'm wondering if the base line Kings will be the full 10%, or will it be the 2%, and you will have to spec to make it better.

The latter makes sense.  I'd expect a 2 point talent increasing to 5%/10%.

Probably, but where will that fall in the tree?

And what would be the 5 pt talent to replace at the top of the tree?

Curiouser, and curiouser.


-Mark

Looking at the other changes...

* Ardent Defender, Improved Hammer of Justice, One-Handed Weapon Specialization and more have had their ranks reduced.

My guess would be it would go into one of these ranks somewhere replacing the reduced points.

Quote from: wildcard on Sun, 2009-02-08 : 00:06
Looking at the other changes...

* Ardent Defender, Improved Hammer of Justice, One-Handed Weapon Specialization and more have had their ranks reduced.

My guess would be it would go into one of these ranks somewhere replacing the reduced points.

or maybe they will drop divine storm down in the tree and give us a really good bottom talent

* Exorcism – this spell now causes damage to all types of enemy targets. However, it always critical strikes undead or demon targets. This change should make sure paladin damage doesn't drop when going from Naxxramas to later tiers of content.

um, where the hell did these come from?  And where can I find the equally super OP Warrior version of these? Paladins are already trying to compete with Mages and I thought it was okay because they were facing all kinds of undead/demon shit, but it's fucking crazy if they end up being able to keep up the inflated dps they're doing.  I'm might just have to switch back to my Mage so I can hit 3 buttons and top the meters too.

QQ more.  :whackit:

Seriously, outside of undead content, Paladin damage is not that insane (e.g. Hyjaal and Zul'Aman). Run with a Shadow priest (not one of the pure DPS classes) and it would make you cry.

Quote from: Kellanon on Sun, 2009-02-08 : 12:36
QQ more.  :whackit:

Seriously, outside of undead content, Paladin damage is not that insane (e.g. Hyjaal and Zul'Aman). Run with a Shadow priest (not one of the pure DPS classes) and it would make you cry.

The whole "pure DPS classes" comment isn't a valid argument anymore, since for the most part, Hybrid classes are doing more damage than most of the pures - ie Shadow Priest, Paladin, DK > Rogue, Hunter, Lock, etc.

Quote from: wildcard on Sun, 2009-02-08 : 15:23

Quote from: Kellanon on Sun, 2009-02-08 : 12:36
QQ more.  :whackit:

Seriously, outside of undead content, Paladin damage is not that insane (e.g. Hyjaal and Zul'Aman). Run with a Shadow priest (not one of the pure DPS classes) and it would make you cry.

The whole "pure DPS classes" comment isn't a valid argument anymore, since for the most part, Hybrid classes are doing more damage than most of the pures - ie Shadow Priest, Paladin, DK > Rogue, Hunter, Lock, etc.

good rogues and hunters in good gear buttfuck pallys and dks in damage.

I've seen your Karofiend pull out obscene damage with his pally.  But not nearly as crazy as the Shadow Priest Klarth! 

I'd love to run with more Rogues/Hunters to see how things turn out.

I hope they rebuff hunters though.


-Mark

Quote from: tulion on Sun, 2009-02-08 : 15:32

Quote from: wildcard on Sun, 2009-02-08 : 15:23

Quote from: Kellanon on Sun, 2009-02-08 : 12:36
QQ more.  :whackit:

Seriously, outside of undead content, Paladin damage is not that insane (e.g. Hyjaal and Zul'Aman). Run with a Shadow priest (not one of the pure DPS classes) and it would make you cry.

The whole "pure DPS classes" comment isn't a valid argument anymore, since for the most part, Hybrid classes are doing more damage than most of the pures - ie Shadow Priest, Paladin, DK > Rogue, Hunter, Lock, etc.

good rogues and hunters in good gear buttfuck pallys and dks in damage.

The only hunters "buttfucking" Pallies and DKs in damage are Survival, with everything being best in slot haste gear.  So it takes a pure DPS class to have the best geat possible to outdamage Pallies and DKs in basic 10man badge/raid gear.  That's not right.  Given equal skill, no hybrid class should greatly outDPS a pure DPS class.  I don't have a problem if the DPS is comparable, but the pure classes should have an edge since that's ALL THEY BRING TO THE TABLE.

I agree -

Hunters should be the best single target ranged DPS class.
Mages should be the best multiple target ranged DPS class.
Rogues should be the best melee DPS class.
Warlocks should be the highest damage to threat DPS class.

Quote from: wildcard on Sun, 2009-02-08 : 18:50

Quote from: tulion on Sun, 2009-02-08 : 15:32

Quote from: wildcard on Sun, 2009-02-08 : 15:23

Quote from: Kellanon on Sun, 2009-02-08 : 12:36
QQ more.  :whackit:

Seriously, outside of undead content, Paladin damage is not that insane (e.g. Hyjaal and Zul'Aman). Run with a Shadow priest (not one of the pure DPS classes) and it would make you cry.

The whole "pure DPS classes" comment isn't a valid argument anymore, since for the most part, Hybrid classes are doing more damage than most of the pures - ie Shadow Priest, Paladin, DK > Rogue, Hunter, Lock, etc.


fleet on bronzebeard is a hunter and is quite possibly the highest dps output on the server.

good rogues and hunters in good gear buttfuck pallys and dks in damage.

The only hunters "buttfucking" Pallies and DKs in damage are Survival, with everything being best in slot haste gear.  So it takes a pure DPS class to have the best geat possible to outdamage Pallies and DKs in basic 10man badge/raid gear.  That's not right.  Given equal skill, no hybrid class should greatly outDPS a pure DPS class.  I don't have a problem if the DPS is comparable, but the pure classes should have an edge since that's ALL THEY BRING TO THE TABLE.

Updated:

• Auras will now persist through death.
• Blessing of Kings is now trainable at level 20. Removed from talent trees.

Talents
Protection

• New Talent Divinity:Tier 1 protection talent, increases healing done by and to you by 1/2/3/4/5%.
• Sacred Duty (Protection) rank 1 now increases Stamina by 4%.

Retribution

• Benediction (Retribution) now affects Hand of Reckoning.
• Fanaticism reduced to 3 ranks for 6/12/18% bonus and 10/20/30% threat reduction.
• Repentance no longer resets the Paladin's melee swing timer.
• Righteous Vengeance reduced to 3 ranks for 10/20/30%.
  

what happened to the Exorcism change????????

Undocumented changes:

Paladin

 
• All Paladin auras have had their tooltip changed to note that they work on the entire raid, not just the party.
  

Holy

Skills

 
• Exorcism can now be used on all targets, but is now a guaranteed critical strike vs Undead and Demon type mobs.
   
• Judgement of Light now procs off spells as well. (Previously only "attacks" would trigger this)
  

Talents

 
• Purifying Power (Tier 6) now reduces the cooldown of your Exorcism and Holy Wrath spells by 17/33%. (Previously increased the critical strike chance of those spells by 10/20%)
   
• Pure of Heart (Tier 5) now reduces Curse, Poison, and Disease effects by 15/30%. (Previously was 25/50% but did not include poisons)
   
• Blessed Hands has been moved from Tier 5 to Tier 4 and now reduces the mana cost of Hand of Freedom, Hand of Sacrifice and Hand of Salvation by 15/30% and cooldowns by 10/20%.
   
• Improved Concentration Aura's (Tier 4) reduced silence/interrupt effect now works while any aura is active.
  

Protection

Skills

 
• Shield of Righteousness now deals 130% of block value + 520 at the highest rank. It no longer causes a high amount of threat. (Previously increased damage by a set amount)
   
• Blessing of Kings is now a baseline ability. Trainable at level 20.
  

Talents

 
• Shield of the Templar (Tier 10) no longer increases the damage of your Holy Shield, Avenger's Shield and Shield of Righteousness spells. Instead it gives your Avenger's Shield a 33/66/100% chance to silence targets hit by it for 3 sec.
   
• Judgements of the Just (Tier 10) now reduces the cooldown of your Hammer of Justice by 10 sec, increases the duration of your Seal of Justice effect by 0.5 sec, in addition to its previous effect.
   
• Avenger's Shield's (Tier 9) damage has been increased across all ranks.
   
• Guarded by the Light (Tier 9) now reduces spell damage taken by 3% and gives a 50% chance to refresh the duration of your Divine Plea when you hit an enemy. (Previously reduced the mana cost of your Holy Shield, Avenger's Shield and Shield of Righteousness spells by 15%.)
   
• Holy Shield's (Tier 7) damage slightly increased across all ranks.
   
• Ardent Defender (Tier 7) is now a 3 point talent, reducing damage taken by 10/20/30%. (Previously was a 5 point talent)
   
• Sacred Duty (Tier 6) increases stamina by 4% now. (Previously was 3%)
   
• One-Handed Weapon Specialization is now a 3 point talent, increasing damage done with 1 handers by 4/7/10%. (Previously was a 5 point talent)
   
• Blessing of Sanctuary (Tier 5) now only grants 2% of maximum displayed mana when the target blocks, parries, or dodges a melee attack. (Previously granted 10 rage or 20 runic power or 2% max mana)
   
• Divine Guardian (Tier 4) now has been changed to redirect damage "(up to a maximum of 150/300% of the Paladin's health)." (Previously had no limit)
   
• Improved Devotion Aura (Tier 4) now increases the amount healed on any target affected by any of your Auras by 2%. (Previously only worked with Devotion Aura active)
   
• Improved Hammer of Justice (Tier 4) is now a 2 point talent, reducing the cooldown of Hammer of Justice by 10/20 sec. (Previously had a 3rd rank that reduced cooldown by 30 secs)
  

Retribution

Talents

 
• Righteous Vengeance (Tier 10) is now a 3 point talent. When your Judgement and Divine Storm spells deal a critical strike, your target will take 10/20/30% additional damage over 8 sec. (Previously a 5 point talent)
   
• Fanaticism (Tier 8 ) is now a 3 point talent and now increases the critical strike chance of all Judgements capable of a critical hit by 6/12/18% and reduces threat caused by all actions by 10/20/30% except when under the effects of Righteous Fury. (Previously a 5 point talent)
   
• Improved Retribution Aura has been removed from the game.
   
• Improved Retribution Aura's effect has been merged into Sanctified Retribution (Tier 5).
   
• Divine Purpose has been moved from Tier 5 to Tier 6.
  

Quote from: Kellanon on Tue, 2009-02-24 : 11:04
Retribution

Talents

 
• Righteous Vengeance (Tier 10) is now a 3 point talent. When your Judgement and Divine Storm spells deal a critical strike, your target will take 10/20/30% additional damage over 8 sec. (Previously a 5 point talent)
   
• Fanaticism (Tier 8 ) is now a 3 point talent and now increases the critical strike chance of all Judgements capable of a critical hit by 6/12/18% and reduces threat caused by all actions by 10/20/30% except when under the effects of Righteous Fury. (Previously a 5 point talent)
  

This is a pretty huge pve nerf. Righteous vengeance went from 40% to 30% and Fanaticism went from 25% down to 18%. Any dps gains we would have gotten from Exercism were just wiped out and then some by this.

All of the standard PVE talent choices (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin=052320512033313221332313310000000000000000000000000050000000000000000000000&glyph=000000000000&version=9614) leave a lot of points left over in the new patch. We'll either see more talents or Blizzard expects us to go more hybrid.

(http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/icons/24x24/paladin.jpg) Paladin
Holy

• Divine Plea (http://ptr.wowhead.com/?spell=54428) now only reduces the amount healed by your Flash of Light, Holy Light, and Holy Shock spells.
• Aura Mastery (http://ptr.wowhead.com/?spell=31821) tooltip has been modified to properly reflect its 10 seconds duration.

Protection

• Divine Sacrifice (http://ptr.wowhead.com/?spell=64205) tooltip has been modified to properly reflect its 10 seconds duration.

Retribution

• Divine Storm (http://ptr.wowhead.com/?spell=53385) now causes 110% of weapon damage to up to 4 enemies within 8 yards.
• Righteous Vengeance (http://ptr.wowhead.com/?spell=53380) now also affects Crusader Strike.
• Crusader Strike (http://ptr.wowhead.com/?spell=35395) is now An instant strike that causes 110% weapon damage. In addition, if you strike a player while they are casting, their magical damage and healing will be reduced by 50% for 6 sec. (That is not an official change. It is something we were experimenting with, but not a change we are going to make for 3.1. Source (http://blue.mmo-champion.com/28/15864309119-new-ptr-build-paladin-changes.html))
• Judgements of the Wise (http://ptr.wowhead.com/?spell=31878) now immediately grant you 25% of your base mana. (Up from 15%)

Glyph of Seal of Blood -- When your Seal of Blood, Seal of the Martyr, Judgement of Blood, or Judgement of the Martyr deals damage to you, you gain 11% of the damage done as mana. (Old - Glyph of Seal of Blood -- Your Seal of Blood or Seal of the Martyr increases the mana received from Spiritual Attunement by 10% while active.)

Updated:

Paladin (3.1 Skills List (http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?page=610) / 3.1 Talent + Glyph Calc. (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin))

• Seal of Blood/Seal of the Martyr: The damage done by these two seals has been increased but the damage done by their judgements decreased. The balance is now roughly 60% from either seal and 40% from a judgement on total damage done. The total damage done should be roughly the same.Please note that the 3.0.9 tooltips had incorrect values for the damage done, but the tooltips should be much more accurate in 3.1.0.

Retribution

• Divine Storm: Damage increased.
• Judgement of the Wise: The immediate return of base mana from this spell has been increased to 25%, up from 15%.
• Righteous Vengeance reduced to 3 ranks for 10/20/30%. The damage done by this talent no longer receives modifications from effects that increase or decrease damage done by a percentage. Now triggered by Crusader Strike as well.

The Seal of Blood damage boost is good. While their stated goal of boosting Retribution DPS in the PTR doesn't seem to tie in with the nerf to judgements, I think the Divine Storm (and therefore healing) boost will be the counter.

JotW getting a boost is great news. The flip-flopping on Crusader Strike and the changes to Righteous Vengeance are piddly, IMO.

Yeah, cause hybrid class Ret Paladins need to be doing MORE damage. :/

Quote from: wildcard on Fri, 2009-03-27 : 18:54
Yeah, cause hybrid class Ret Paladins need to be doing MORE damage. :/

Right now on the PTR, Retribution is doing horribad DPS. Some updates have Shockadins doing more damage. You should never have a healer doing more DPS than even a hybrid DPS class.

Quote from: Kellanon on Fri, 2009-03-27 : 21:15

Quote from: wildcard on Fri, 2009-03-27 : 18:54
Yeah, cause hybrid class Ret Paladins need to be doing MORE damage. :/

Right now on the PTR, Retribution is doing horribad DPS. Some updates have Shockadins doing more damage. You should never have a healer doing more DPS than even a hybrid DPS class.

With that I can agree.

Quote from: wildcard on Fri, 2009-03-27 : 22:02

Quote from: Kellanon on Fri, 2009-03-27 : 21:15

Quote from: wildcard on Fri, 2009-03-27 : 18:54
Yeah, cause hybrid class Ret Paladins need to be doing MORE damage. :/

Right now on the PTR, Retribution is doing horribad DPS. Some updates have Shockadins doing more damage. You should never have a healer doing more DPS than even a hybrid DPS class.

With that I can agree.

quoted again for extra truth

3.1.2 changes and expectations for 3.2: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/28/16904204830-simple-questions-regarding-balance-direction.html